bart_calendar ([info]bart_calendar) wrote,
@ 2008-12-31 14:17:00
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Entry tags:lots of comments, smoking, third hand smoke

I'll Give Up My Cigs If You Give Up Your Car
Reading this article about the supposed dangers of "third hand smoke" has really got my dander up.

The smoke nazis have won - why the fuck do they still want to fuck with us. We can't smoke at work, in bars, in restaurants, in night clubs or any place the fuck near them.

Now, they want to make us not be able to smoke even if they are not around. The theory of "third hand smoke" in this article is that if you smoke in your own home with nobody around it could still effect the health of someone who comes into your home hours, days or weeks later.

Of course they put this warning of "it's for the children" because one day you might theoretically have a baby in your house and that kid could get sick from a cigarette you smoked IN YOUR OWN HOME days or weeks before.

Blow me. This is just paranoid thought police bullshit designed to sell more packages of Nicorette Gum. And it's the straw that broke the camels back as far as my tolerance for anti-smoking people.

Let's just talk about "second hand smoke" for a minute. Yes, if I am on the street smoking and you walk by my smoke might get on your clothes and make them smell and you might inhale a small amount of toxins. You might say it's not fair that my choices make you stink and bring minor amounts of poison into your body.

Fine, but if that's the case, whey should I accept your choices doing the same thing to me? I don't drive a car or ride in cars ever, but I bet most non smokers do.

And you know what, those cars, busses, taxis and trucks are spwewing out a lot more toxins than my cigarettes ever will. Car exhaust makes my clothes smell. Why should I have to put up with your second hand combustion engine emissions?

Plus, your use of automobiles is fueling two horrible wars and propping up awful nation states that allow the abuse of women. My use of cigarettes simple employs a bunch of people in the Carolinas and keeps your income taxes lower than they would otherwise be.

Beyond that cars cause the deaths of 10s of thousands of people a year - many of whom are innocent bystanders!

So, here's the deal - you give up polluting my air with your death machines and I'll put away my Gauloises.




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[info]anne_keckler
2008-12-31 01:53 pm UTC (link)
That's actually a pretty decent argument. Did you read that somewhere, or is it your own original thought?

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 01:58 pm UTC (link)
My own thought while I was drinking last night.

I came upon it when, while smoking outside of the bar because of anti-smoking rules I almost got run over by a driver who was either drunk or simply not looking.

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[info]anne_keckler
2008-12-31 02:12 pm UTC (link)
Excellent. The only reason I asked was that if it was something you read somewhere, I'd be interested in seeing the original article, or reading more things by the author. But I already read more stuff by you, so that's done! :-)

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 02:20 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

The "third hand smoke" thing really pissed me off.

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[info]anne_keckler
2008-12-31 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Government telling us all how to live our lives really makes me angry, in general. And the smoking bans even benefit me! That doesn't mean they're right, though.

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 04:13 pm UTC (link)
You should post a link to this on the libertarian forums.

Maybe we can make this argument popular!

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[info]d_willrobinson
2008-12-31 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Good points all. The worst thing is that our analytic capabilities have far outpaced our ability to understand their meaning. Trace poisons abound, and our bodies can handle them, sometimes even benefit from them.

I don't smoke cigarettes regularly, and actually find it more pleasant to hang in a bar without the smoke, but often find myself outside anyway. What's most ironic about most of these smoke nazis is that they will fight tooth and nail against picograms of cigarette tar, and then go home and smear 'products' on their skin which contain everything from uber-inert silicones, to methyl paraben (embalming fluid). Even that Hawaiian suntan lotion ingredient, PABA, is much nastier when called by its full name, para-aminobenzoic acid.

It's mostly about who is selling and who is buying. Nicorette gum or cigarettes, someone is selling, someone is buying.

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

I was worried I was going to get flamed

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[info]procrasturbator
2008-12-31 03:38 pm UTC (link)
I always thought there should be smoking and non-smoking bars, but that just didn't seem to work. Long before the ban, someone tried it here, but didn't get enough business.

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 03:40 pm UTC (link)
In Spain they have smoking and non smoking bars and it works out well.

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[info]anne_keckler
2008-12-31 04:08 pm UTC (link)
If they don't get enough business, then that must mean that there aren't enough people who go to bars who don't want to smoke. If that's the case, then why did the government have to ban an activity that the majority of people seem to want? This really makes no sense to me.

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 04:11 pm UTC (link)
Amen.

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(Anonymous)
2008-12-31 03:43 pm UTC (link)
Just to put a spanner in it?

How do your Cigs get delivered to the shop??

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Horse drawn carriage and/or carried on the backs of pygmies.

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[info]d_willrobinson
2008-12-31 04:09 pm UTC (link)
...Handicapped, native American, transsexual, child pygmies.

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 04:11 pm UTC (link)
Who are ravaged by the effects of sixth hand smoke.

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[info]d_willrobinson
2008-12-31 04:13 pm UTC (link)
...and forced to square dance in high school, no less!

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[info]moominmuppet
2008-12-31 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Amen.

*puffpuff*

I'm not entirely thrilled so I'm damned addicted to them, but there's a lot I enjoy about smoking, and there's little that makes me want to quit less than this kind of arm-twisting crap.

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[info]toxic_iguana
2008-12-31 04:56 pm UTC (link)
Jesus Christ. This makes me want to START smoking.
I bet I'd look sexxxy smokin' a pipe.
I vote we ban margarine! And stuffing mixes! And instant mashed potatoes!!!

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[info]anne_keckler
2008-12-31 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Careful! There are already government regulators who want to ban margarine. Let's not give them any more ideas.

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[info]blozor
2008-12-31 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Don't these idiots realize that the miniscule volume of smoke almost immediately gets dissipated in the vast volume of air to the point that it's rendered ineffective? Besides, most of the harmful toxins are absorbed into the body of the first-hand smoker. What's exhaled is an insignificant amount of toxin when compared to the amount of toxins already in the air. These anti-smoking health nuts aren't as all-natural as they claim to be. Look at what they drink. They're always drinking purified bottled water. If they were really all-natural, they should cup their hands and drink from a creek. They're propping up an industrial machine that is destroying our polar ice caps and belching more pollutants into the air than every living smoker combined. It's all about control. You're doing something they don't like so they want to make it as little fun as possible. As George Carlin would have said, It's all bullshit, and it's bad for you.

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[info]bart_calendar
2008-12-31 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Exactly.

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[info]monkey1976
2008-12-31 07:12 pm UTC (link)
interesting argument.

i have to say, i LOVE non-smoking bars though. they're so much more pleasant to hang out in.

i think it should be up to the individual business owner whether or not they want to allow smoking in their establishment.

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[info]charlotte_webb
2008-12-31 11:55 pm UTC (link)
I agree with that. I don't understand why worst case scenario NY bars couldnt just purchase a smoking license like a liquor license.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 12:45 am UTC (link)
Exactly.

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[info]anne_keckler
2009-01-01 01:53 am UTC (link)
I don't think either should require a license. Serve what you want.

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[info]donnalee_kiss
2009-01-01 04:34 am UTC (link)
As a person allergic to cigarettes, I'm all for non-smoking in most places, and the way they set it up in PA was if more than 30% of your income is from food, you can't smoke there. I think thats pretty fair. Also newer establishments don't bother me much, since they're up to code on ventilation. If all bars, no matter the age, had to install new ventilation, I'd go to them, smoking or not.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 08:14 am UTC (link)
You do know that even the American Cancer Society admits that it is physically impossible to be allergic to cigarette smoke.

Some doctors simply tell people they are allergic to it to make them less likely to smoke.

http://www.airqualitytips.com/109/the-1-myth-about-smoke-allergies/

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[info]donnalee_kiss
2009-01-01 08:28 am UTC (link)
I am specifically allergic to the chemicals in cigarettes. I have no allergy to tobacco, and can be around people smoking good cigars, pipe tobacco or native american cigarettes which only use tobacco.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 08:31 am UTC (link)
Allergens are proteins. There are no proteins in tobacco. Instead they are irritants.

This is not to say that cigarettes don't make you feel like shit, it's just to say that it's not an allergic reaction.

Many doctors went to jail for telling their patients they were allergic to cigarettes because the Nicorette people gave them money to lie to their patients.

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[info]donnalee_kiss
2009-01-01 07:34 pm UTC (link)
Either way, I don't want to deal with cigarettes near me. And I applaud doctors going to jail for lying to patients about anything. They have way too much unquestions authority to do or say anything and it goes to their head.

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[info]cyntata2672
2009-01-01 11:43 am UTC (link)
So would you prefer that people just say I suffer from smoke aggravated allergies as opposed to smoke allergies?

As someone who grew up in a two smoker household, I am so glad I live in a state where you can only smoke outside. From about the age 7 on, I suffered from asthma and would get bronchitis at least once a year. When I went away to college, this stopped. Since I graduated, I think I've gotten bronchitis 3 times, maybe 4, in twenty years. I contribute a lot of this of no longer being in a house with two smokers and having shag carpeting, which I think everyone is or should be allergic too.

I still have allergies to other things, but I am so glad to no longer have those irritants in my lungs on a constant basis.

I won't say anything to anyone smoking outside of a bar, but I greatly appreciate not coming home smelling like I smoked a pack of cigarettes too.

...but I also don't think I've ever said I was allergic to smoke, I've just said smoke and my asthma don't get along. This goes for cigarette smoke, the smoke I had to walk through to escape my burning building (ended up with bronchitis after that), being around camp fires, and sometimes even fireplace fires.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 01:23 pm UTC (link)
I just think that people should know that it's impossible to be allergic to cigarette smoke.

There is so much anti smoking propaganda out there that I'd rather people at least know the truth.

I kept mostly quiet about things until this "Third hand smoke" issue came up - that's the straw that broke the camel's back.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 01:36 pm UTC (link)
P.S.

I have no problem with the ban on smoking in restaurants. It mixes oddly with food smells.

But, in hard core bars I think it's ridiculous.

Last night I was in my local bar and people were openly gambling, doing cocaine and fucking in the bathroom, but they had to stand outside in the rain to smoke.

That makes no sense to me.

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[info]donnalee_kiss
2009-01-01 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Yes, honestly as long as people are doing all that in dive bars, who cares if they smoke?

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 09:51 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. You don't go to these kinds of bars to be healthy!

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[info]freespeculation
2008-12-31 08:28 pm UTC (link)
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I fully believe that you shape your own destiny and that includes the way you want to die and what you do to your body.

I have very strong feelings about this because, while I don't smoke, two of my closest friends are longtime, heavy smokers. I will never sit on a high horse about this shit because I am severely addicted to 2-3 cups of coffee per day. As in necessary for my existence. It's actually great: I can surprise them with a carton of their brand if they're short on cash and I never go without my brand of coffee because they understand. I've seen firsthand how the smokers I love get shit on and sometimes it pisses me off. Smoking's not any worse than fast food, greenhouse gases, alcohol, or anything else toxic people put into their bodies on purpose.

Grrrr.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 08:34 am UTC (link)
Right.

Freedom is the ability to make choices other people disagree with.

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[info]d_willrobinson
2009-01-02 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Freedom is also the ability to breathe clean air. When some megacorp spews poison and pollutes my air should that be their "freedom?"

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[info]amorphousplasma
2008-12-31 10:14 pm UTC (link)
I used to love the smell of club the next morning. I have lots of associations with that smell. Now that cigarettes are banned from indoors bars in Houston it just isn't the same. Being in Prague and Vienna was amazing because of how comfortable everyone is with smoking there. I felt terribly uncomfortable, very "American", lighting up, as if I should go outside, even though it was obviously acceptable behavior. I hate the fact that smoking is vilified here and that "science" is twisted to fit the argument against smokers. Yes, smoking is bad for you. So are myriad other things (as pointed out above), and if you are in a bar in the first place, you are probably no saint. Can we cut the crap and let people be responsible for their own actions?

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 08:16 am UTC (link)
I'm amused by the people who have been convinced by their doctors that they are "allergic" to cigarettes, even though that is physically impossible.

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[info]little_bounce
2009-01-01 08:15 am UTC (link)
I hate cigarette smoke. I hate the way it makes my clothes smell, I hate that I have to breathe it, I hate that it makes me lose my voice. I hate that if I go out, if I don't wash my hair after coming in, the next night my pillow still smells of it.

As a result- I don't go out much. We had non-smoking heaven for 4 months, then somebody realised they'd fucked up when putting the law in place, and lots of places put the ashtrays back out. After being able to enjoy going out for dinner, suddenly, we stopped again. So remarks like "if you are in a bar in the first place, you are probably no saint" cut no ice- I'd like to go out more, but I don't, simply because I find it so unpleasant when people are smoking around me.

On the other hand, I have no driver's license, I can't drive, and I take public transport everywhere, or walk.

And on the third hand (I'm using the baby's)- if you want to smoke in your home or in the street, then that's your business. But I'd really appreciate it if you didn't blow smoke over my baby when I'm outside with her. It makes me want to kill you.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 08:16 am UTC (link)
People blow smoke on your baby?

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[info]little_bounce
2009-01-01 08:45 am UTC (link)
It happens that I'm standing there with her in the baby-carrier, and somebody comes to stand and smoke next to me... and sometimes it seems as though they're doing it deliberately, and sometimes when I glare at them prior to moving off (as I'm not about to pick a fight as that would mean staying close to the smoke) they say "Oh, merde, desolé!" and bugger off and smoke elsewhere.

But the other ones deserve to die. Slowly.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-01 08:53 am UTC (link)
See, obnoxious smokers piss me off just as much as obnoxious anti-smokers.

I believe their can be a balance.

This is why I like spain where half the restaurants and bars allow smoking and half don't.

It makes the choice easy and fair for everyone.

That said, I've also argued that the smoking ban should be seasonal. I have no problem with the smoking ban in spring, summer or fall. I simply sit on the terrace.

It's only when I'm forced to stand in freezing rain that it bothers me. Particularly on nights when 95 percent of the bar patrons are smokers and we all have to get rained on simply to accommodate the one person in the bar who doesn't like smoke.

That said, I don't smoke around babies and never have, even before the ban.

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[info]1_strangeman
2009-01-06 05:13 pm UTC (link)
Sadly the fanatics will never be convinced and will never give up going after your cigs. It's really pretty pathetic.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-01-06 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Truly.

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